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Post by historygamer2 on May 25, 2007 18:00:20 GMT -5
Okay PDF's are good and a market may or will exist/expand. I have windows95 and not the full version of adobe so I'm sure that may be the reason I can't see thumbnails. Anyway on we go.....
I guess I should have been more specific about the cost equality question. I was not talking about free figures or ones you create but ones that are for sale downloadable or otherwise.
As far as I know there are already some 5 companies selling PDF figure sets. A few don't fit in with my interest as they are 3D poser kind of stuff but the rest are readily available. Gloriousbattle started a thread, a yahoo group and a forum hosted by Charles Reynolds to increase paper awareness (conventions and such) but rather than use already manufactured paper (retail) figures it looks like they are going to create their own. Is this being untrue to the concept or affection for paper minis or part of the cheapness factor of homemade paper figures?
All opinions seem to agree that paper vs metal is cheaper. But what does that really mean?
Are we all just cheapskates (no offense intended, just an honest question)?
If family men, can't we justify spending money on metal figs to our family?
If we all had the money to buy tons of figs and have them painted for us would we honestly still use Paper figures (and this is for posterity so please be honest)?
For me - It has always been a family monetary issue, which is why I scratchbuild all my terrain and make paper figs. A side issue is one that I like to create, probably more than I do to game. I can create more if it is inexpensive. When I am gaming it does not matter what type of figs I use (though I don't tend to mix the two for some unknown reason). I do know that I would never pay anyone to paint my figs (just goes against my creative grain) I would use paper first.
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Post by shaungamer on May 26, 2007 16:17:45 GMT -5
I guess I should have been more specific about the cost equality question. I was not talking about free figures or ones you create but ones that are for sale downloadable or otherwise. The most expensive Paper figs I have purchased have still been less than a 25c each. This still works out cheaper than metal figs.
Is creating their own figures being untrue to the concept or affection for paper minis or part of the cheapness factor of homemade paper figures? I think its more about what is lacking in commercial paper minis. There still isn't a good enough variety of retail figures to cover what players want. If you can't buy it - make it.
All opinions seem to agree that paper vs metal is cheaper. But what does that really mean? Are we all just cheapskates (no offense intended, just an honest question)? Some of us definitely are!
If family men, can't we justify spending money on metal figs to our family? I couldn't, as the ones I would want are very expensive. I can't even justify spending the money to myself!!
If we all had the money to buy tons of figs and have them painted for us would we honestly still use Paper figures (and this is for posterity so please be honest)? I would still use some paper figures. Most probably for RPGs ,Dungeon crawls and RPG related wargames. This assumes I overcome storage issues - (I am sure I could, which is why I have answered this way) However having 2 fantasy armies, 8 pygmy armies, 2 splatball armies, 7 space fleets, 4 sailing fleets, 2 dungeon crawls, 2 sci-fi armies and 2 ACW armies all fit in a drawer set that is only 10" wide by 2' high by 1' deep, is pretty cool. Going back to question 2 - What do other people think would be a good genre for commercial paper miniatures that hasn't been covered yet?
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Post by brynbrenainn on May 29, 2007 2:46:41 GMT -5
Pardon my curiosity, but:
Where do all these questions lead...?
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Post by brynbrenainn on May 29, 2007 4:58:12 GMT -5
Well, here are my batch of answers, even though I still am curious... ;)
Okay PDF's are good and a market may or will exist/expand. I have windows95 and not the full version of adobe so I'm sure that may be the reason I can't see thumbnails. Anyway on we go.....
I guess I should have been more specific about the cost equality question. I was not talking about free figures or ones you create but ones that are for sale downloadable or otherwise.
As far as I know there are already some 5 companies selling PDF figure sets. A few don't fit in with my interest as they are 3D poser kind of stuff but the rest are readily available. Gloriousbattle started a thread, a yahoo group and a forum hosted by Charles Reynolds to increase paper awareness (conventions and such) but rather than use already manufactured paper (retail) figures it looks like they are going to create their own. Is this being untrue to the concept or affection for paper minis or part of the cheapness factor of homemade paper figures?
All opinions seem to agree that paper vs metal is cheaper. But what does that really mean?
Are we all just cheapskates (no offense intended, just an honest question)? In the imortal words of Obi Wan Kenobi: 'From a certain point of view...'
If family men, can't we justify spending money on metal figs to our family? It is a matter of quntity, I can justify spending money on me - as long as it is not too much.
If we all had the money to buy tons of figs and have them painted for us would we honestly still use Paper figures (and this is for posterity so please be honest)? What fun would that be? 3D minis are all about the painting and modelling aspect of the hobby. Why then commision all the fun out of it...?
For me - It has always been a family monetary issue, which is why I scratchbuild all my terrain and make paper figs. A side issue is one that I like to create, probably more than I do to game. I can create more if it is inexpensive. When I am gaming it does not matter what type of figs I use (though I don't tend to mix the two for some unknown reason). um... Estetics...?
I do know that I would never pay anyone to paint my figs (just goes against my creative grain) I would use paper first. I feel the same way.
But I have another pressing reason as to why I do paper minis rather than metal minis: Waning eyesight. I cannot paint metal minis to the standard I know I have been able to, so I draw minis in double size and scale them to 28mm minis... :)
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Post by historygamer2 on May 29, 2007 8:37:18 GMT -5
Where do all these questions lead...?
Just discussion really, fact finding, inquisitive, curious, at times frustrating from a unrealized lack of understanding.
I did'nt necessarily start the questions to lead anywhere specific but to try to better understand the community and who and how to better participate in/with it. I hoped it would allow others to get a feel for it's pulse as well, both current and future. Whether those be users, prospective free designers or people thinking about going into this so called business.
For most who just download and use the figs it's pretty cut and dry what they want.
For someone who wants to support and promote this hobby it's another.
And for those few of us who design we have other ideas and motivations.
So I guess it's to try to find a real common thread. "I like paper minis" is way too vague a statement and warrants some good discussion.
To just ask the question - How must we promote paper figures effectively? - would return more redundant responses than those that included some reflection. That's why polls never work really well, you get more opinion responses rather than well thought out feedback.
Aside from that, I don't know how the owner and moderators prefer stuff like this to be handled. Best in one thread or a bunch of smaller ones. So for right now I only started one other thread that I thought might be off on a different tangent. Please let me know if/when I am creating a problem.
However if this is all being to vague we can try more specific questions.
Going back to question 2 - What do other people think would be a good genre for commercial paper miniatures that hasn't been covered yet?
Anyone have a complete list and mfg name/address of what has already been done?
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Post by FNH on May 29, 2007 14:02:45 GMT -5
I have two tool boxes of metal mini's. I can not possibly store any more ( 1 bedroom flat + 4 people + 1 dog = NO SPACE! ).
I switched to Paper Minis for two reasons, SPACE and WEIGHT.
I dont have a car so I go to wargaming by pedal bike.
I now have 2xACW, 4xFantasy, 4xNapoleonic, 2xSciFi armies plus Scenery in a small cardboard box, with room for twice as much again. I can take all of these plus rules in my backpack to the wargames club. I cant do that with Metal.
Go Paper!
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Post by shaungamer on May 29, 2007 21:15:15 GMT -5
Just a quick note here. I have documented about 160 different paper miniature sets that are available for sale on line. Over a third are produced by Arion Games and are your typical poser 3D miniatures that use a tent fold to create a standup card. Back and front do not line up so they have whitespace surrounding them. Although they do have some nice looking art.
Another third are produced by various RPG companies (Pinnacle, Comstar etc.) These are usually for use with their RPGs so are single character figures. These are a mixture of 3D or Drawings. They usually only have front art and are designed as standup cards. Styles vary from Anime, to realistic, to cartoon.
There are a few that try to be distinctive. FPDP released some 2.5D Orcs and Humans that look OK. But they are lacking in variety.
Budget battlefield releases a range that is a mixture of 3D Art and Drawings. Tent folds again and no back.
Disposable Heroes has a range of hand drawn characters.
In general I can say that none of them come up to the standard of some of the free items that are available on the net.
Most of them cannot be created into flats. (They don't have a back or the backs don't line up)
The best commercial set I have seen, is some WWII figures from Wargamedownloads. They have two sides to the figures that do match up. although sold as standup cards, they could be converted to flats easily.
I own most of the Budget Battlefield figures as I liked the game but they really are quite bland.
I think the figures released here at Oversoul-games are of a greater quality. Patrick, Ragnar, Onemonk and Scarecrow all have better figures than the retail ones.
Hopefully Onemonk will be able to break into the retail business. He seems to be the only one wanting to head that way. His designs should hopefully raise the bar for the other designers to follow.
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Post by oversoul on May 30, 2007 19:34:27 GMT -5
I still maintain distant hopes of seeing sales here, but these are a pipedream and have no real hope of becoming real until I win the lottery and do not have to work anymore.
To throw my two coins in the cup....
This is a great topic and I would like to commend Historygamer and everyone who has posted. I really enjoy reading everything. This is actually something I have been wanting to add to this sight. Discussion on paper philosphy.
To answer your question on formatting, HG. I am not really concerned if it is in one big thread or several smaller ones. I usually leave it up to the author to decide, so long as it on the same topic. Personally I like the single thread. I have dail up and less loading means more reading and responding!
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Post by historygamer2 on Nov 28, 2007 9:31:28 GMT -5
Time has passed..........
A new group (papermakeit) and individuals have begun selling pdf products. It may be to early to tell what the impact might be.
I do agree only 9/10 people actually use this stuff but -------
I have personaly held off publishing stuff to give some of these new startups space. So as not to be cast as trying to undermine or compete with them. Am I in a no win situation?
What does this mean for free for personal use designers?
How does one protect copyrights and control commercial pdf sales from using free for use work?
Will they (free for personal use designers) be forced out of the way because they are seen as competition?
From what I have seen, there are several types of paper enthusiast. 1. Gamer (solo or otherwise) looking for a complete game to play. (rules, figures and terrain or board). Likes rules and game design. 2. Modeler (either vehicles or buildings) Likes the thrill of assembly and display. 3. Miniaturist Cheap Proxy (looking for a specific type) to be used as proxy or standin for some metal based miniature game. Likes to have quick cheap way to play a specific popular game. 4. Miniaturist Easy Proxy (looking for any type) to be used as proxy or standin for all miniature and role-playing games. Likes to have quick cheap way to play a variety of games. Especially themes that metal figures are not available for. 5. Scenist (buildings and terrain) assembled 3d or map tiles to replace commercial resin scenery or homemade foam/wood/plaster stuff. Likes to have cheap eye candy for a miniature game. 6. 3D Modeler Miniaturist (looking for miniatures to be built like models). Likes the modelling challenge and the figure design concept. 7. Paper People (people looking to steal, copy or manipulate other work for profit) Like to make money with a total disregard for the law, hobby, the creators wishes or for future paperophiles.
Some of us may be members of each of these to varying degrees. The question is does one size fit all?
Is it possible to appease all of these interests in one place or are these individuals doomed to be internet roamers?
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