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Post by shaungamer on Dec 21, 2009 20:36:21 GMT -5
As some of you will be aware a new version of DP is on the drawing board. A lot of the issues that players have raised are being looked at and solutions found. Some solutions are full blown rule changes, others are the addition of optional tweakes that players can pick or choose depending on their prefered style of play. However some issues are not as easy to solve, such as the dead Heroes. The idea of one character dragging around three companions, while searching for a sarcophagus of Revival, is just a bit much. (Especially when he gets no penalties for doing so!) So I decided a poll may be a good way to see what the players think! They are carried by the others without penalty is how the rules currently are played. This makes it easy for new players and doesn't cause any surprises or complex situations. They are carried by the others, with a penalty is the first alternative. This includes such options as: - Two Heroes can carry a single dead Hero with no penalty
- One Hero can carry a single dead Hero but it takes up a Hand Item space.
- One Hero can carry two dead Heroes but it takes up both Hand spaces
- Movement penalties or modifiers to rolls.
They are left until they can be revived is the third alternative and can include coming back to them after the Quest is finished to take them to a sarcophagus of reviving or giving them a potion. The last two options are obvious, so I won't go into detail. Please let me know what you think?
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Post by ciabs on Dec 22, 2009 4:02:10 GMT -5
I'd go with the penalty thing... only, I'd not give so many possibilities to try not to have too much bookkeeping; being REALLY happy that there's a rules update on its way, and hoping that between other things the new rules will also support parties up to 6 players (a man can dream, can't he? ), I'd say that the penalty could be that any hero can be carried by another one by taking a hand space and that's it, so that up to 3 dead people (in a theoretical party of 6) every surviving character can bring another; the problem would begin with 4 or 5 dead characters, but then one could add the "left until can be revived"... I'd drop the "two can carry one with no penalty", as they can't actually raise the dead character above their head and carry him without using any hand... another way altogether could be to give movement penalties in stead of hand space penalties, but that should be discussed... EDIT: back onto the dead bodies, I think that any rule should have some kind of effect in gameplay, so since it's only logical that characters can drop the corpses of their comrades when fighting, maybe the best way to go could be to have a dead body occupy a hand space, and that it counts as an action to grab/drop the corpse; that way a character with weapon&shield has to use one action - and one item space - in order to remove the shield and another to grab the body, in order to carry it to the sarcophagus, and have to pay that price as well when fighting if he doesn't want the penalty for being with no shield; a character with a two-hander would just not benefit for the weapon bonus altogether (since he's using one hand to carry the corpse) until he drops the dead character; it can be argued, at that point, wheter readying his two-hander has to be considered another action (so that weapon&shield characters are on par with two-handers) or not... what do you say? also, sorry for the WoT...
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erf_beto
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Posts: 369
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Post by erf_beto on Dec 22, 2009 6:31:12 GMT -5
Hmm... tough call. I'd say I want heroes to be able to carry others but if you actively think about it, then that just opens a can of worms... I mean, if we are going to take it seriously, should the frail wizard really be able to carry his fighter comrade in plate mail, with shield and warhammer included? One could argue he does it with magic, but that's not the point... If we are talking seriously, then more than just a hand space should be considered (unless you're Hercules). But I think the game will suffer if you do that. I guess, the less I think about it, the better. My solution: just have the hero carry all his fallen friends as long as he has one free hand, with a -1 or -2 penalty on every stat (including MOV) for each dead weight. The hero can drop them all in an adjacent space with a free action, so he can fight monsters should they be encountered. And, include a spell (like Floating Disk) or an item (like Magic Carpet) that deals with this. A small parenthesis on this whole dying and reviving issue: I don't like the Sarcophagus. I know a couple of people would go "Eeeewww" when I would explain to them that you drop a dead body in a grave and it comes back to life... it does have the cool Castlevania "you sleep in a coffin to save the game" feel, but it's still creepy. In my games, I'll be switching the sarcophagus tile with a shrine/altar devoted to a god or goddess: worthy heroes laid before the altar are revived. Also, clerics could pray in these shrines to get special bonuses. On the other hand, there could be a special ability that makes you undead - and then you can be revived in a sarcophagus.
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Post by ciabs on Dec 22, 2009 6:58:59 GMT -5
I agree with the sacrophagus/altar thingie, but I think that giving an hero maluses to stats for carrying dead comrades and then giving them the opportunity to get rid of them as a free action equals not changing the rules at all, and keeping the "no maluses for carrying dead bodies", since there would be no events where these maluses actually matter (one could also drop the corpses before resolving any trap)... that's why I proposed to have those situations cost actions to the players, so they actually alter in some way the gameplay when needed, and in order not to suffer the maluses, players have to pay a cost... as for strenght requirements in order to carry comrades, I think DP doesn't need to be THAT specific, we don't even HAVE a strenght stat anyway, I'm gonna do some cut/paste with my previous post and open another thread for the additional suggestions I posted, so everything can be discussed where it should...
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Post by shaungamer on Dec 22, 2009 16:35:11 GMT -5
There are some good points here . . . does anyone else want to chime in? It is a bit busy and distracting this time of year so I will leave this thread open for more discussion
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Post by ciabs on Dec 22, 2009 16:51:58 GMT -5
when you've got time go and read the HUGE WoT on the suggestions thread and let us know what you think about them...
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Post by reddog on Dec 22, 2009 21:53:17 GMT -5
I've been looking over the rules quite a bit (still have to play a full game...)
With the art and some of the more comical modules, DP really has a light-hearted atmosphere. To be consistent, it would make sense that the death rules should not be taken too seriously. I think that the suggestion of the bodies of the fallen being carried with no penalty makes sense.
If DP evolves into a more serious game, then perhaps some harsher death rules would fit better...or, you could write up several different sets of death rules and let the groups decide what to use.
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Post by oversoul on Dec 23, 2009 5:48:54 GMT -5
I think reddog hit it on the nose. DP from the very title is suppose to be more light than a traditional dungeon crawl. I have always likened it to be somewhere between a traditional rpg and classic video rpgs like final fantasy. Speed and ease are also high in that list and play into that theme as well. There is no need for a penalty to carry your comrades, it just adds one more thing to remember to do and it can potential slow the game down. As Shaun stated in another post time can be limited as can be people to play with. DP should fill that need and not overcomplicate things.
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erf_beto
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Post by erf_beto on Dec 23, 2009 7:38:48 GMT -5
Then, maybe just add a sidebar with an optional rule for those who really want it, explaining the possible implications of the rule and how much it goes against the spirit of the game. In fact, why not make it a part of a different (optional) action, called "Carry" or "Lift" or "Pick up", that allows heroes to carry heavy objects. That way, we can interact with boulders and other dungeon dressing, like throwing the Orb of Doom into a lava pit, or "rescuing" the reluctant prince that insists on becaming a pirate. Something like... Carry a Heavy Object To Carry a heavy object, you must be adjacent to it and use an action. While you are carrying a heavy object, you take a -2 penalty on all stats. When you move, you also move the object. At the end of your movement, you can drop the object to any adjacent space or choose to keep carrying it. Optional: for simplicity, dead heroes are assumed to be carried without penalties, but if you want a grittier game, you may use the Carrying rules and consider all dead heroes as a single heavy object. Now, this is just begging for another action: Hurl !!! is this still too much for Dungeon Plungin?
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Post by ciabs on Dec 23, 2009 8:56:20 GMT -5
I see why not overcomplicate things, given the setting and DP goals, but still I can't avoid being drawn to what heights we can expect from this system should we want to give it a more deep gameplay...
I don't mean to scrap the toony looks or something like that, just to give it more strategical options while keeping the core gameplay as smooth, fast and customizable as it has been up to now...
then again, as erf suggested, there could always be two "sets" of rules, one simplified for anyone wanting a quickie when bored, the other with all the other options available to whoever likes it more... there's lots of games that have different rulesets based on likes, why not just enrich DP with whatever we've got and then have anyone choose which rules to apply..?
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Post by dan on Dec 24, 2009 10:18:19 GMT -5
I like the "Carry" concept. I had tried out the following a couple of times and it seemed to work ok: Any one hero can carry any one other dead hero (or possibly a live hero for some reason?) and it served only to hinder the carrier's movement by one, and two could carry without penalty. It is assumed that they drop the body if they take any other action than moving or carrying, and have to take an action to pick it back up, and the body does take up a space. When I think of carrying the body, it's not just that they lift it over their shoulder and walk on, they may use a cloak or blanket to work as a stretcher or sled, or they could stuff all the pieces of the body in their backpack (I have also assumed that the sarcophagus could resurrect even a dismembered corpse)...which leads to an interesting idea for an adventure in which you have limited time to recover your friend's head so he can be brought back to life...
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erf_beto
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Post by erf_beto on Dec 24, 2009 11:53:50 GMT -5
(I have also assumed that the sarcophagus could resurrect even a dismembered corpse)...which leads to an interesting idea for an adventure in which you have limited time to recover your friend's head so he can be brought back to life... Reminds me of Diablo: you can keep the ear of a dead player in your inventory as a "souvenir". ;D If I'm getting it right, True Ressurection in D&D only needs a piece of the body (but Raise Dead needs the whole, mostly intact, body), so a sarcophagus that mends the body altogether wouldn't be that weird... and the idea of a quest where you hunt the head of an important npc is really creepy, but full of awesome! And keeping in theme with the ligthearted aspect of the game, what do you think about simply saying the heroes "re-spawn" at the sarcophagus (or some other location)? You know, POOF! No questions asked. Sort of a "save point".
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Post by shaungamer on Jan 4, 2010 18:53:22 GMT -5
The rule for dead heroes needs to be something simple or else it complicates the game too much. Looking through the various suggestions I propose the following solution: Having any Dead Heroes in your party causes all remaining Heroes to lose one hand position to carry the Dead Hero/es and their stuff. The surviving Heroes divide the load between them. I guess you could even imagine a lone Hero tying the others together and dragging their carcasses behind on a rope. This will encourage resurrection of the Dead Hero/es as soon as possible and doesn't require any bookkeeping.
A Hero can use an action to change from carrying the Hero to holding a weapon or shield. So the penalty isn't too harsh.
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Post by kalajel on Jan 6, 2011 1:49:29 GMT -5
Sorry for the thread necro, but I'd like to add my two cents here, especially if the issue hasn't been resolved yet…
Since DP seems to have it's share of inspiration coming from video games RPG, I'd suggest perhaps using their school of though that bodies are carried around with ease, no questions asked… (I'm having a flashback to the Dragon Warrior serie where a lone surviving hero would tug along 3 coffins here… lol)
Dying sucks enough already for the player, it shouldn't suck so much for the rest of the party…
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