|
Post by ciabs on Dec 22, 2009 7:21:26 GMT -5
ok, I made some cut/paste in order to keep things tidy; in this thread I'd like to give some suggestions for the new DP ruleset: 1) as stated before, make the game playable up to 6 players 2) redo the detection rules altogheter, as now they're kinda clunky and not so useful when you enter a 6x6 (or even smaller) room; instead of detection ranges, one could use stealth statuses and skills/checks to mantain it/discover it, or something like that... maybe have a "stealthy" special skill that grants nondetection in relation to the character's DEX vs the enemy's WIT, as well as a counter-stealthy special skill that cancels this effect; 3) enlarge the magic section, as I suggested in another thread, thinking for support at higher levels, as in "magic school: water lvl2" with prerequisites such as a high enough MAG stat and the "magic school: water lvl1", and so on... one could put only DIF 1 and 2 spells onto the first level and go on with higher difficulties on higher levels... 4) obviously attach the DYOQ to the main set, and give a more definite form to it 5) tweak the item section, as - for example - the scale mail's only downside is its price, while it should have a mov penalty as per the plate mail, or it becomes a must buy as soon as any character gathers some money; maybe a -1 mov for the scale and -2 for the plate; also, MAG penalties for heavy armors or non-mage armors; 6) also add the dwarf rules to the main rules, and add human, elf and halfling specific special skills (a human specific SS could be the one that gives 1 more xp per kill), while I'm not sure if race-specific SS should be at double price for non-race-characters or banned altogether to them; it loses something onto the open customization that's been a DP trademark till now, while it gets something onto the character developing side... 7) also for SSs, take a minimum level requirement for the most powerful; for example, weapon master and all the others "4+ as success" SSs are IMO way too powerful for a 1st level character; it's true they cost 200pts (100 at creation), but the 17% more chance to succeed they grant should make them available at level 4 or 5 minimum... the same can be applied for higher level magic schools and the such; 8) have monsters give somewhat less xp for each kill (ie: revisit the xp equation); the gold they give seems right at the moment, as you can't get rich with one dungeon and you always want to come back for more, while in a single plunging into TTL my 4-character party got 107xp each, leveling to lvl2 and still having 57xp to spend on spells/SSs, and that's a little too fast leveling - especially for a really basic dungeon we didn't even explore 100% - I think... 9) make monsters significally tougher; I was thinking about giving them more than 1LIF, but that could bring to a pain of bookkeeping; then one could just raise their ATK and DEF values, or even use a simplified life chart for every monster I say this because at the moment most battle situations can be resorted to basic attack spamming (that's due to small roomspace combined to weak monster stats) 10) this one's really tough; it could bring something good for anyone using reduced minis and tiles sizes, but I think it can't be done at standard scale due to printing limitations, and that would be to bring the standard dimension for rooms from 6"x6" to 8"x8"; that would grant better strategic possibilities and room combination, but I think that's not something that can be done... too bad... ...and that's it, for now at least... I'm always happy to give feedback and my gray matter to the cause, so let me know if you need anything... as before, sorry for the WoT, let's discuss these suggestions..! ;D
|
|
|
Post by ciabs on Dec 22, 2009 7:41:04 GMT -5
sorry, it seems I'm delusional talking to myself, anyway suggestions keep coming to my mind so I try to post them before I forget them regarding my previous post's number 5) point - ie: the item list tweaking, why not something like this: -1 to unarmed attacks +0 for knives/basic weapons: price 5 or 10 gold +1 for one handed weapons like swords or clubs +2 for two handed weapons +something more for magic weapons and such (maybe additional +1 for specific enemy types and so on) this way initial weapons don't spread a too big bonus onto the players, that can get better equipment on with the levels without capping it too soon... this way a +1 or +2 weapon is a good choiche for starters (but in some cases, as two-weapon fighting or non fighting characters even a +0 knife) and there are 10 levels of quests to gather +3, +4 or even +5 weapons... on another note, and make this point 11) what about some kind of "attack of opportunity" of D&D-ish memory for casting and using ranged weapons while in melee? it's easy to incorporate, it adds depth to the strategic options (for both the players and the enemies) and finally it makes sense... as before, discuss...
|
|
erf_beto
Artist
Artwork Wizard
Posts: 369
|
Post by erf_beto on Dec 22, 2009 8:44:12 GMT -5
ok, I'm leaving for lunch, real soon, so I'll be quick with my suggestions:
Use only d6! Really, for new gamers and people who live in small towns, this is a must!
Increase the range of utility for stats like RES, DEX and WIT. I'm thinking they should be treated as special defenses against magic and traps, the same way D&D uses Fortitude, Reflexes and Will saving throws/defenses. Otherwise, the poor thief won't have any points left to improve his ATK and DEF.
Stat point costs at creation should work the same as with leveling, because a 5 stat is much difficult to improve than a 1 once you reach level 2.
Do not charge XP to buy new special abilities, because you should...
... count XP for the whole party instead of each hero. Much less bookkeeping. Unless you're playing competitive.
Instead, award Special Ability Points at creation and with each new level to purchase abilities.
Get rid of special abilities that permanently change the success range to 4-6. They became more and more powerfull the more dice are rolled. These could occur only on certain circunstances, or special rooms at specific quests, or with a single use magic item.
I've got more to say, but got to go now.
|
|
|
Post by ciabs on Dec 22, 2009 8:45:38 GMT -5
err... 12) what about xp for trap defusing/door opening? maybe not as much as for "normal" enemies, but it could work, something like xp value = DIF of the trap/door... 13) some rule to force the great key to appear in dungeons? ie: if not found before, the last door to be opened, be it walkway or room MUST yield at least one chest, that has 100% the great key; that's because I can't think of any way to "end" a dungeon if the great key isn't found; it sounds illogical to exit and reenter the dungeon in order to complete it, since it can't just have its monster back, nor can it change during the same campaign, and that would be a pity to have a dungeon ruined for not being able to get to the boss... the system that grants the great door to appear is solid and works well, but there should be something that grants the great key to appear as well (that should be a plus over the equation in DYOQ that explains the odds of the great key to appear)... EDIT: ok, I'm leaving for lunch, real soon, so I'll be quick with my suggestions: Use only d6! Really, for new gamers and people who live in small towns, this is a must! mmmh... that's something interesting, using just d6s one still has d2, d3, d6 and 2d6 to be used to full potential, that's something that could get some thought into it... Increase the range of utility for stats like RES, DEX and WIT. I'm thinking they should be treated as special defenses against magic and traps, the same way D&D uses Fortitude, Reflexes and Will saving throws/defenses. Otherwise, the poor thief won't have any points left to improve his ATK and DEF. that's something that could go well with my suggestion for stealthiness and trap/door xp values; Stat point costs at creation should work the same as with leveling, because a 5 stat is much difficult to improve than a 1 once you reach level 2. I totally agree Do not charge XP to buy new special abilities, because you should... ... count XP for the whole party instead of each hero. Much less bookkeeping. Unless you're playing competitive. Instead, award Special Ability Points at creation and with each new level to purchase abilities. I think XP are already counted for the party, with the difference that once they're divided between players (that's every 120xp following the rules as they're now, but could be divided after every dungeon or such as well) everyone is free to use them to either level up or buy SSs... anyway I agree with Ability points, even if it would change character progression since if you give 1 ability point per level it means you don't have to spend XP on abilities anymore and you can focus all your XPs onto leveling up, still it's more streamlined and makes sense... Get rid of special abilities that permanently change the success range to 4-6. They became more and more powerfull the more dice are rolled. These could occur only on certain circunstances, or special rooms at specific quests, or with a single use magic item. I've got more to say, but got to go now. mmmmh... yeah, that's true, maybe even a simple level requirement is too little, since when taken, such a powerful ability could only benefit more for being unlocked by characters with a high value in the chosen charateristic... maybe one way could be a mid-level ability that halves the number of dice you roll, but that has every 4+ count as a success... but I'm not sure if that would end being useful, statistically-wise, because the risk is a overnerfing of the ability; it would need some math-crunching in order to unveil the possibilities of it...
|
|
erf_beto
Artist
Artwork Wizard
Posts: 369
|
Post by erf_beto on Dec 22, 2009 10:57:11 GMT -5
12) what about xp for trap defusing/door opening? maybe not as much as for "normal" enemies, but it could work, something like xp value = DIF of the trap/door... errr... doesn't that already exists? Maybe I'm remembering an older ruleset. 13) some rule to force the great key to appear in dungeons? ie: if not found before, the last door to be opened, be it walkway or room MUST yield at least one chest, that has 100% the great key; that's because I can't think of any way to "end" a dungeon if the great key isn't found; it sounds illogical to exit and reenter the dungeon in order to complete it, since it can't just have its monster back, nor can it change during the same campaign, and that would be a pity to have a dungeon ruined for not being able to get to the boss... the system that grants the great door to appear is solid and works well, but there should be something that grants the great key to appear as well (that should be a plus over the equation in DYOQ that explains the odds of the great key to appear)... I've been reworking the tables for a quest and have been struggling with this as well. No solutions, as of yet... Get rid of special abilities that permanently change the success range to 4-6. They became more and more powerfull the more dice are rolled. These could occur only on certain circunstances, or special rooms at specific quests, or with a single use magic item. mmmmh... yeah, that's true, maybe even a simple level requirement is too little, since when taken, such a powerful ability could only benefit more for being unlocked by characters with a high value in the chosen charateristic... On the other hand, I have thought about using a system where non-skilled characters must roll 6 for successes (like the barbarian trying to pick locks), skilled ones roll 5-6, and specialists rolll 4-6 (the master thief deactivating a trap). I even considered applying this to weapons, like the axe gives you +4d6, but only hits on a 6 - it has the potential to deal lots of damage, but it's more wild - while the dagger gives only +1d6, but hits on a 4-6, because it's faster... So, this way, you have an incentive to play with either weapon. But I'm not sure if it's balanced or not...Anyway, I think it's important to try to keep it simple, for those who want it to remain simple. For instance, if a hero receives 1 ability point every level and the player doesn't know the rules too well to select an ability to invest (or maybe he feels his character alredy does everything his concept required), he should be able to turn that AP into bonus stat points.
|
|
|
Post by ciabs on Dec 22, 2009 11:24:00 GMT -5
I can't find the place where it says you gain XP for trap disarming and such, but maybe it's my poor eyes, someone please either confirm or deny this regarding the great key I don't think there's a way to make it work other than force it on the last room; actually I thought that there's also a tiny possibility that a great door doesn't appear, as if in the room chart there's a "6x6 room (1 door)" and you get that result on the last possible construction phase when having had the bad luck never to roll for a great door before, then you'd end with no great door at all... but I think that's such a little probability that it shouldn't even be bothered... finally, while I think that's neat to have different tasks have different success ranges, I think that kinda goes in the way with charateristic values; the point is, if you also take into account proficiency then you simply end having hyperspecialization, since a barbarian will already have a low WIT and DEX value, it's only detrimental to give him 6+ successes on those stats too! the same would go for 4+ successes and specialists... also I think (but I may be mistaking) that statistically-wise having weapons (or general items for that matter) as the ones you suggested coul easily break the game / be quite unrealistic; in the example you posted any high level character would only ever wield knives, since even giving just +1 ATK they'd hit on a 4+, thus making the high base ATK of the high level character MUCH MORE efficient than with 5+ or 6+ successes... like, it's better to have a total ATK of 6 and succeed on 4+ than having ATK 9 and succeed on 6+...
|
|
|
Post by shaungamer on Dec 22, 2009 17:30:51 GMT -5
ok, I made some cut/paste in order to keep things tidy; in this thread I'd like to give some suggestions for the new DP ruleset: 1) as stated before, make the game playable up to 6 players We have tried this before and found it didn't work well. There are solutions to most of the issues but then you really had a 6 player game . . . it didn't scale well between the 4 and 6 player options. Changes required for 6 players. Minimum room size is 7x7 anything smaller means some characters will miss out on the fun. Minimum Hall (and doorway) width is 3 for the same reason. Monsters need to be tougher (You can't just have more) Bosses have to be better as well. Monster detection has totally changed in the new rules. There is now a monster awareness chart and there is a single roll for whether Monsters detect you or not. The effect of detection is more pronounced as well. Magic is getting quite a makeover. As well as more spells, there are more schools and they will be grouped by effect (Attack school , healing school etc.). Higher level spells will either be stronger, better range or effect more targets. There will be no prerequisites other than what already exist, If you want your level 1 Wizard with MAG 5 to take a DIF 5 spell then be prepared for him to forget it before he gets a chance to use it. (Critical failures are a lot more likely now.) Actually we are going to split things up. They can still be combined into a single book but we have found that having everything in a single document means new updates are never released. We will be splitting it into Heroes, spells (These can be updated separately but they need to be used together) Rules and Monsters. DYOQ will stay separate as will the Quests. There probably will be a book of optional rules as well. The Heroes book will include Dwarves, Elves and Human characters. As we add new races then only that book needs to be updated, not the whole ruleset. Items are being tweaked and more will be made available to the Heroes. Also Monster and Hero weapons and armour will work the same way (give the same bonuses etc.). See above. We try to avoid race specific SS but we do realise that it may be easier for some races to gain certain skills. We are always open to suggestions for new abilities, but if you have a good idea don't wait for us to add it officially. Feel free to use House rules whenever you want. This brings us back to an old discussion although things have changed somewhat since then. We won't put a level limit on SS but we could put some other prerequisite in place for those that seem unbalanced. Thanks for the suggestion! Actually the fast levelling was deliberate. Most of us do not have the time to play DP regularly, so having the fast levelling means we could play out our characters and try something different more easily. If you want a more conventional Level up then we can add something to the optional rules to halve all Monster XP. Monsters will be different in the new rules (When we get to them). Stats will be adjusted as well as Monster Laws and the combinations of units used in QUests. 8x8 can be achieved with "Letter" sized paper but not A4, so you won't see that happening unfortunately. You will see the removal of the 4x6 rooms. The minimum size will be 6x6 for the reasons you stated. I love discussion and ideas. Although I try hard not to sound bad, sometimes my comments can be abrupt (Especially when I am hurrying like now). Please be assured that I do not mean it that way. One last thing I should mention. Are you using version 3.1 of the rulebook? Some of your comments in the threads seem to come from rules in an earlier version. e.g. Trap XP is on page 24 under Gaining XP. I will comment some of the other points when I have a bit more time at my disposal. Thanks again! ~ Shaun
|
|
erf_beto
Artist
Artwork Wizard
Posts: 369
|
Post by erf_beto on Dec 23, 2009 8:17:53 GMT -5
Hey Shaun, thanks for the new info! I'm eagerly antecipating the next release. Can you preview how the spellcasting will work?
|
|
|
Post by ciabs on Dec 23, 2009 9:16:25 GMT -5
ok, there's a lot of stuff brewing as I can see, and most of it I kinda like..! let's just scrap 5 and 6 players gameplay, as your points make even too sense... I'm totally eager to see the new detection rules, as well as the new magic and items (just promise you'll give some thinking about my suggestion of -1 ATK for unarmed, +0 for small weapons, +1 for 1hand and +2 for 2hands, leaving higher bonuses to magic weapons ), they look promising then again, it's a simple and brilliant idea to split chapters of the manual into single documents, it's just plain right... I'd only like to stress on some SSs' requirements, as they can be game-breaking if not considered thorougly; maybe a high stat value as req for those 4+ success skills, combined with a reviewed stat cap on levels (that way character level is an indirect mean of balancing powerful skills), something like a cap at 4 or 5 at 1st level, then every odd level it goes up one point... also, I look forward to monsters SSs that can mimic those of the players, so one could have a particularly vicious boss that has 4+ as successes for a real challenge (on either ATK, DEF, or whatever); one could also create particularly strong, resilient or resistant enemies based on this concept (ie: a wizard enemy that has RES checks at 4+ successes), but that should be thought some more... just another note, after another game with my brother and cousin: they made me note that there are lots of SSs that are just useless at first level; ie: Dodge skill at 100pts (50 at creation) is nowhere useful to take, as it basically gives you +1 DEF when at full health, and since stat cap at level 1 is currently at 6 it's always gonna be more useful to spend 25pts on DEF directly 'cause there's no way you'll end up having maxed DEF and still needing ANOTHER die to it at 1st level... and this situation can actually be carried over at higher levels too; there's more than one SS worded this way, and maybe they could benefit a rewording; maybe a character can with such a skill can roll on the related check twice but has to keep the second result, and then have a subsequent "improved" SS (that has the first as req) that grants the same benefit but you can choose the best result, or something like that... anyway both shaun and erf, you're right, it was me who missed the traps and spells xp values, I read that section just once and it got erased from my mind, so just blame me I'll be waiting for previews (hey, santa's around the corner, ain't he? so why not hope for previews "presents"? ;D ) and thoughts about the other suggestions already posted as well as these in this last post... keep up the good work..!
|
|
|
Post by reddog on Dec 24, 2009 1:49:14 GMT -5
...just promise you'll give some thinking about my suggestion of -1 ATK for unarmed, +0 for small weapons, +1 for 1hand and +2 for 2hands, leaving higher bonuses to magic weapons ), they look promising The problem with setting unarmed to -1 is what to do with a character with an ATK of 1. The setup they have now makes sense to me. A few things I thought about:1) The treasure and shop values feel off. It's a little weird to open a chest to find only 5gp; and then you need 4 more to have enough to purchase a dagger...then only eight more 5gp chests will get you plate mail. 2) The Special Abilities list feels like it needs an expansion into a skill tree. 3) I am wondering if there is another way to do the critical fumble system for attacks and spells, though I have not been able to come up with a simple one either) 4) Adjust the missile ranges: Increase the range of bows and crossbows to 12; leave handguns and the mana staff at 8; give daggers, spears, and bombs a throwing range of 4.
|
|
|
Post by ciabs on Dec 24, 2009 3:44:23 GMT -5
yeah, I can see that; then again, it's not so unlikely to have problems injuring a wolf or damaging an orc's thick hide with your bare fists, so it kinda makes sense... and the "unarmed" situation is one that is at the far edge of the spectrum, as anyone is gonna at least arm himself with a dagger...
still, I can see your point out of simplicity and linearity that DP is known for, but as we're discussing in the dead heroes thread, that can be adjusted case by case...
|
|
erf_beto
Artist
Artwork Wizard
Posts: 369
|
Post by erf_beto on Dec 24, 2009 4:38:37 GMT -5
...just promise you'll give some thinking about my suggestion of -1 ATK for unarmed, +0 for small weapons, +1 for 1hand and +2 for 2hands, leaving higher bonuses to magic weapons ), they look promising The problem with setting unarmed to -1 is what to do with a character with an ATK of 1. The setup they have now makes sense to me. The way I'd handle unarmed attacks is having each success on an ATK roll only happen on a 6, unless you buy a special skill that makes you "proficient" with unarmed strikes and also gives you +1 or +2 bonus to make it comparable to other weapons. The monk wants to go plungin' too ;D
|
|
|
Post by reddog on Dec 24, 2009 11:45:36 GMT -5
The way I'd handle unarmed attacks is having each success on an ATK roll only happen on a 6, unless you buy a special skill that makes you "proficient" with unarmed strikes and also gives you +1 or +2 bonus to make it comparable to other weapons. The monk wants to go plungin' too ;D I had not thought of unarmed attacks requiring a 6 for a success...that's not a bad idea...and yes, it would be nice if the system could support a monk concept.
|
|