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Post by shaungamer on Aug 8, 2010 23:17:16 GMT -5
Well after many months of compiling feedback from email, Boardgamegeek and the Oversoul forums, I am pleased to release the 3.5 Playtest version of Dungeon Plungin' to the public. This is in the new format of individual books for each section to allow for quick updates. The Following files are available: RulebookDP_v3.5.pdf Troll Lair QuestTTL_Quest_v3.5.pdfDen of the Orcish Raiders QuestDOR_Quest_v3.5.pdf Character BookCB_v3.5.pdfThese playtest files will eventual develope into DP v4.0. The rulebook is near to completion but I am sure that there will be changes and that errors will be discovered. Currently the Spell Book and Monster Book are the only missing components. Using a segmented rule system should allow alternative Fan created content to easily plug into DP. These can be additions or complete substitutions. If you want to add rules for Dark elf Heroes or do not like the way the Orcs are portrayed, you can write your own rules that add or replace the existing rules. Eventually I hope to release a Designer's kit which will explain how to work out spell, weapon and item costs, XP and Monster bonuses etc. There are little changes here and there, but the main changes are listed below: Monster Awareness Pg 7 Doors Pg 8 1s and 2s on a roll Pg 8 Detecting a trap Pg 11 Disarming a trap Pg 11 Opening a Locked chest or door Pg 12 Random Events Pg 12 Monster laws Pg 14 Advancement Pg 16 These changes will cause some changes to the Quests. Changes are: A Monster awareness table A Diff for the Great door A Trap for the Great door Special location details Item values in gold (to sell) Let me know what you think? Edit: Fix broken link Edit2: Add page numbers for changes to v3.0
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erf_beto
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Post by erf_beto on Aug 9, 2010 8:47:34 GMT -5
AWESOME!!! Thanks Shaun! *downloading right now!* EDIT¹: the TTL_v3.5.pdf link is not working for me... :/ EDIT²: it woks now! thanks!
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Post by dan on Aug 9, 2010 18:55:15 GMT -5
YAY!
After perusing quickly I notice what may be an issue about dwarves (dwarfs?...not sure on the plural). As far as I can see, there is no cost or any hindrance associated with being a dwarf, you can simply choose to be one and thus get the cheaper price on runes. Maybe I am missing something though, or something got deleted in error?
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Post by shaungamer on Aug 9, 2010 23:05:13 GMT -5
No there is nothing missing. The runes are a specific dwarf thing. I haven't really finalised what the other races get as a bonus yet. Some ideas for Humans: Cheaper weapons or armor Reduced prices for some abilities
Some ideas for Elves: Magic school ability at half price Spells at a reduced price Reduced prices for some of the agility abilities Elf specific weapons
Thanks for pointing the issue out.
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erf_beto
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Post by erf_beto on Aug 10, 2010 6:49:15 GMT -5
I did just a quick run through, but I'm loving it. The spliting of Rules and Character books works wonderfully. I like the new awareness rules, though I haven't given it much thought. dan: I didn't notice that about the dwarves. But I like Shaun's solution. One thing that jumped at me while cruising my eyes through the text is the mention of lockless doors/chests. "Lockless"? I'm not a native english speaker, so I could be wrong, but wouldn't "unlocked" be a better term? Sorry for the nit-picking ;P Will give better feedback later.
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Post by shaungamer on Aug 10, 2010 17:55:14 GMT -5
One thing that jumped at me while cruising my eyes through the text is the mention of lockless doors/chests. "Lockless"? I'm not a native english speaker, so I could be wrong, but wouldn't "unlocked" be a better term? Sorry for the nit-picking ;P I am still struggling to find a good term for this. You may notice that the "lockless" Chests and Doors do not have a lock mechanism at all. They are blank and they can never be locked. The other Doors and Chests do have a lock and can be locked and unlocked. If someone can think up a better term for "lockless" it would be appreciated!! I have been going through the notes and discovered that there are still things missing from the Character creation section that are referred to in the new Rules. "Weak" armor is the one I have discovered so far. Here are a list of the new Weak Armors. Wooden Shield | +1 | Takes up a Hand position. Weak | 5 Gold | Shale Armor | +2 | Weak | 30 Gold | Quilt Armor | +3 | Weak | 45 Gold |
I decided I should add some reasoning behind my preferences for different race bonuses. Humans are your standard size. For that reason I was going to make Armor cost more for other races. (The armor would need to be adjusted to suit a Elf or Dwarf) Mithril armor would be an exception as it is created by all races. I think this gives the best flexibility without limiting characters. My initial thoughts are +10 Gold. Elves are an intrinsically a Magic Race. I think they should be allowed to increase their Magic stat at any time, even if they started as a non-magic user (0 MAG, 2 LIF). To bring them up to par with the other races I would also make the Magic School ability half price all the time. Feedback or suggestions are always welcome!
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Post by dan on Aug 10, 2010 18:11:55 GMT -5
I see now about the dwarves, that makes sense. I like the elves being able to raise Magic too. I think to balance it for humans, reducing some ability costs would make sense too, as they could be perceived as more flexible then. As far as armor costs, maybe this is nitpicky, because the idea is probably more for game balance than anything, but saying humans would pay less because they are standard sized would seem to be making the assumption that armorers are universally human. It would seem to me that if you were a human that went to an elven armorer, you would would pay more human armor than elven. Just a thought. I hope to get a chance to play through this soon, there's also an quest I have been holding off on waiting for a new edition, hopefully I can finish that up soon.
One more thing, if we have dwarves and elves, what about halflings?
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Post by shaungamer on Aug 10, 2010 19:00:08 GMT -5
Dungeon Plungin' is supposed to be set in the Realm which is a Human Empire. Elf or Dwarf adventurers are uncommon but do visit the Realm, seeking fame and fortune. That is why Humans were the first Heroes and we added the other races as expansions. (Perhaps I should add this "fluff" to the rule book.) Elves or Dwarves having other occupations would be very rare and even then would cater for the Humans as they are the "normal customer". As for Halflings - I guess we could add them as a standard Hero choice. Does anyone have any ideas about Halflings?
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erf_beto
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Post by erf_beto on Aug 10, 2010 21:50:02 GMT -5
Is there an explanation for what Darkness does? I know there's a spell with that name, but some items mention it, and I find that carrying a torch only because a witch or random trap might eventually make everything go dark... well, I'd rather use that as a theme for the whole dungeon... at least, some of them! I am still struggling to find a good term for this. You may notice that the "lockless" Chests and Doors do not have a lock mechanism at all. They are blank and they can never be locked. The other Doors and Chests do have a lock and can be locked and unlocked. If someone can think up a better term for "lockless" it would be appreciated!! Well, couldn't we just say "unlocked" and explain in the rules document that an "unlocked door" means a door with no locks, a curtain, or anything else that blocks heroes' line of sight/effect into the next area, and need an action to be opened or removed? Regarding races, I like your fluff, though I'm not sure about what to do, mechanically. So, I'm just gonna go ahead and pour all my uncoherent thoughts all over the thread. Also, it's very late here for me to be reasonable... :P Perhaps the humans could get an extra special ability, if they could afford it, instead of just one. Or, for being versatile and resourceful, a human could buy plenty abilities with a discount, though they are very broad and less specialized (like the first tier of every "count 4,5,6 as successes" special ability), while an elf would only get discounts on the magic flavored ones, even the higher level abilites. As for Halflings, they are lucky, hungry, sneaky little bast- people!, so their abilities could reflect stealth, rerolling bad results, thievery, getting more benefits out of food items or potions, being nimble and annoying to both monsters and allies (like dropping a bucket on a well in Moria, stealing crystal balls they know nothing about...) Off the top of my head: what if we make races some sort of an "Ability Kit"? You can buy only one race and class, and that gives you one or two special abilities and/or a discount when purchasing some abilities. Like halflings already start with nimble, sneaky or prosperous, elves get nimble, darkvision or a free spell from a list, dwarves start with darkvision, endurance and/or rune crafting skills. In fact, we could do classes in this way too! Well, I hope I'll have more time in the morning to give this more sense...
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Post by brynbrenainn on Aug 11, 2010 6:31:30 GMT -5
Those weak armours made me think of the monsters...
Dense fur and thick skin ought to count as free armour.
Especially IF it will be possible to do 'all evil' character gangs. ;D
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Post by erf_beto on Aug 11, 2010 9:17:41 GMT -5
Errr... I'm failing my WIT check.
Where is "Weak" referenced in the rules?
EDIT: Nevermind. Found it! It is in the Damage section of the rules document, not the character creation document!
"If a Character rolls a critical failure then one item of “weak” Armor the Hero is using is destroyed."
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Post by erf_beto on Aug 11, 2010 11:37:13 GMT -5
Hmm... just throwing this to the wind. I'm wondering how much playtest has been done on higher levels. Because, after looking at the tables, I made a quick math and realized that at 10th level, without counting the stats at level 1, I could instantly raise up to six stats from 1 to 10! I'm sure different people might have different tastes, but there wouldn't be any difference between a 10th level thief, warrior and magic user, aside from their gear? Is that intended? I realize this is the same table from the previous ruleset, so I don't know if they were updated. When I made my table (long time ago), I used exactly half of what the rules said and they seemed to work better for me - though I didn't playtest it. Has anyone thought about it? I know the lack of higher level quests actually prevents the issue from coming up, but what do you think? Also, is DP a game you're supposed to invest so much time to play to get to 10th level? Sure it's nice - and I probably wouldn't want it any other way - but should leveling be so powerfull that you have to balance it with loads of increasing XP points? I'm actually trying to get insight into this issue from other games*. BTW, since I'm talking high level here, has anyone thought about how many dices can be rolled when you have a 10 in ATK, wearing spiked shield and armor (ATK+1, ATK+1) and uses a greatsword (ATK+3)? Fifteen freaking dices! And if you add some higher level weapons, runes, spells, potions... !!! 0_o Isn't that too much? :S ---------- *specially the soon to be released and much antecipated Castle Ravenloft BoardGame: www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/59946/castle-ravenloft-dungeons-dragons-board-gameFrom what I've gathered, you can level up only once per session, when draw a certain card or whenever you roll a 20, and you must spend 5 XP from the party pool. Then you can select a new power and flip you character card to play with an adjusted character sheet. Sounds so simple... but the problem is you can't bring your level 2 character to the next adventure, they reset back to first level. ----------- EDIT: sorry about the long (and frequent) posts. I'm on a roll! LOL
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Post by dan on Aug 11, 2010 19:26:18 GMT -5
We had talked about high levels awhile back. There has always been a bit of an issue with scaling, but I think in a way, it makes sense; at the highest possible levels, everyone is basically superpowered, but they will still have different abilities. A 10th level magic user will have a lot of spells, but fewer abilities, a fighter would have far more combat related abilities and so on. I think that at a point, high level characters would have to be retired...the same thing happens with many games...there just comes a point, if you never die, that you have obscenely high levels of skill/power.
Some fluff would be nice, it would help to tie some of the concepts together, but I don't think it should be too detailed, otherwise things wouldn't feel as open ended, if that makes sense.
One thing I am a little worried about here though is added complexity. More and more is getting added, and so far, I'm not saying it's bad, but at a certain point, it's could start getting difficult. One of the great things (to me at least) is its accessibility. There isn't a great big rule book with tons of expansions that all need to be practically memorized to play. Right now, it's the kind of game my wife is still willing to play, I just hope it can stay that way, by that way, I mean light hearted and simple, while still allowing strategy and planning.
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Post by shaungamer on Aug 11, 2010 19:43:55 GMT -5
Is there an explanation for what Darkness does? Darkness was one of the original Events. There was some confusion with how it worked, so I let it slip for a while. Now I aim to bring it back. Basically Darkness made your movement and attacks random. Most Monsters could see in the Dark so it gave them an advantage. There was also a trap that caused Darkness. Some Quests will not use Darkness, some will have it as a trap or event and some will use it totally (Events or traps may be loosing torches etc.) Well, couldn't we just say "unlocked" and explain in the rules document that an "unlocked door" means a door with no locks, a curtain, or anything else that blocks heroes' line of sight/effect into the next area, and need an action to be opened or removed? We could, except there are some events which cause unlocked doors to become locked (and trapped) again. So if we call a door without locks "unlocked" then it is confusing as to whether it is included. Regarding races, I like your fluff, though I'm not sure about what to do, mechanically. So, I'm just gonna go ahead and pour all my uncoherent thoughts all over the thread. Also, it's very late here for me to be reasonable... :P I like the idea of making some abilities cheaper for a specific race, but I don't want to force limitations onto the players. This is meant to be a fun Dungeon crawl where you can do things the way you want. If you want a strong, scale armoured, great axe wielding halfing, then you can! If you want a wise old Dwarven Mage, then you can. Adjusting some costs would make it a little harder to do some things, but ythe option should be there. I am still open to ideas though! Hmm... just throwing this to the wind. I'm wondering how much playtest has been done on higher levels. Because, after looking at the tables, I made a quick math and realized that at 10th level, without counting the stats at level 1, I could instantly raise up to six stats from 1 to 10! I'm sure different people might have different tastes, but there wouldn't be any difference between a 10th level thief, warrior and magic user, aside from their gear? Is that intended? Yes it was intended. There are 8 stats to choose from (although maybe only 6 or 7 that you would want to increase), So there will be a slight chance of variety. However you are right that the intention was to have the characters maxed out at level 10 and their main differences being the abilities and gear they accumulated. Level 10 Monsters are usually ATK 13, DEF 12,WIT 9, Dex 9, RES 9, MOV 5, LIF 2 and have an extra Attack or two. And your party will be facing D6 of them regularly. There has been playtesting done for Level 10, but not for the intermediate levels. The leveling is one of those things that is still being tested but there has been a lot of work done on it. You should only need to complete 1 or 2 quests at each level before you level up. Levels 6 to 10 may require 2 or 3 quests per level. So a complete game of DP that maxes out your character should only take 15 to 25 games. Of course it depends on the Quests and what happens with characters etc. This has been discussed before. Some people actually like rolling all those dice, so the rules will be written as if that is the case. However some people balk at owning that many dice let alone rolling that many. We have resolved that with an optional rule that allows you to combine dice. If you have a Stat of 13 after bonuses, you replace 3 of your normal dice with 3 of another color. The other color will give you a double success/double failure result. This simple solution could be expanded upon in various ways and allows for some tricky things if you combine them with 4,5,6 abilities. There will be a few optional rules that people will be able to mix and match to get the game they want. I am also open to people creating their own rules. Don't feel that you have to tow the official line if there is something that you don't like!
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Post by shaungamer on Aug 11, 2010 20:02:13 GMT -5
Sorry It has taken me so long to write the previous post I din't see your addition! Some fluff would be nice, it would help to tie some of the concepts together, but I don't think it should be too detailed, otherwise things wouldn't feel as open ended, if that makes sense. Fluff really shouldn't be included unless it explains some aspect of the game. There are plenty of other Games out there that do world building and I don't want to get caught in that hype. In fact I would prefer that people take DP in the direction they want. Currently it relies a bit on generic fantasy and old Console RPGs. One thing I am a little worried about here though is added complexity. More and more is getting added, and so far, I'm not saying it's bad, but at a certain point, it's could start getting difficult. One of the great things (to me at least) is its accessibility. There isn't a great big rule book with tons of expansions that all need to be practically memorized to play. Right now, it's the kind of game my wife is still willing to play, I just hope it can stay that way, by that way, I mean light hearted and simple, while still allowing strategy and planning. This has always been an issue, which is why "lockless" doors and chests can no longer be trapped. Its why the spells are getting a rewrite (the number of different interpretations I have seen would astound you!!) Its why some weapon attributes have disappeared (Throwing spears etc.) The only really longwinded section of the rules now is room construction. We have an optional rule for that in the pipeline but most people like it as it is! I really hope to leave the main rules as they stand and just fix errors. As I said in my previous post, I am also open to fan created additions or substitutions. If people want to follow a Tolkien or World of Warcraft design to the quests, they can. If someone wants to design Character classes with Race kits, to enhance the Hero creation process, they can. Hopefully we can each get a game we enjoy and want to play!
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